how is this guy president?

Dementation,
Have you tought that if all the humans would vanish, who would miss them?
I have and I am quite sure that in that day, nature and animals have a party.
"WEE!!! Idiots are gone!!! WEE!!!"

this would surely be the perfect situation for the planet, so why not

Yep, all enivornment parties are trying their best to have man realize he has to fit into nature... but the best thing for nature would be if there was no man...

That's a load of bs. There is no "best" or "worst" thing for nature. Nature isn't a living entity. Nature isn't something that's better off one way or the other. Nature simply is. Everything. Whether man is a part of it or not is not important. The thing people should realize is that the best thing for _us_ would be to not make living on this puny little planet any harder than it is now. Forget nature, think about yourselves.

Epailija, 9.4.2006 19:52:
The thing people should realize is that the best thing for _us_ would be to not make living on this puny little planet any harder than it is now. Forget nature, think about yourselves.

But we are making living on this planet harder, and in fact as a result of thinking about ourselves too much. What we do has a strong impact on nature, on other humans, on our environment, on all living creatures. If we don't think about nature we vill inevitably destroy it. The problem is that people don't realize that we are a part of nature, so forgetting about nature means forgetting ourselves too.

Let's taka a simple example; air pollution. If we try to reduce environmental threats created by ourselves it would in many ways benefit ourselves as an oxygen-consuming species (in the case of reducing air pollution; breathing fresh, non-polluted air. Now isn't that a good thing? Surely it is something that would have positive impacts on human health).

Humans are in many ways different from other living species, as moral beings we have a geater responsibility for what we do than e.g. other animals. We, in contrary to other animals, are very aware of what consequences our doings have, not only for ourselves but for many things that surround us. That makes us special in the case that we can be held morally responsible for what we do. You cannot implement human moral on other species.

Possessing the might and abilities to control nature we have involves great responsibility for our actions. If we aren't ready to take that responsibility, we sure as hell don't deserve any of our "rights" either.

Android, 10.4.2006 11:40:
But we are making living on this planet harder, and in fact as a result of thinking about ourselves too much.

Dude, like, I know. I was only saying that instead of trying to appeal to people's morals with this "do the right thing" and "save nature" crap the environmentalists should instead be using the "think about yourself" card. Since selfishness is abundant among people, this might actually yield better results.

Humans are in many ways different from other living species, as moral beings we have a geater responsibility for what we do than e.g. other animals. We, in contrary to other animals, are very aware of what consequences our doings have, not only for ourselves but for many things that surround us. That makes us special in the case that we can be held morally responsible for what we do. You cannot implement human moral on other species.

That's exactly why we are responsible only to ourselves. Moral - the little we have - is our problem. Besides, we don't owe nature a damn thing - we are, after all, only a tiny part of it.

Possessing the might and abilities to control nature we have involves great responsibility for our actions. If we aren't ready to take that responsibility, we sure as hell don't deserve any of our "rights" either.

You've been reading Spider-Man too much. I don't blame you though, I still read it myself. As I said above, we are only responsible to ourselves. As far as we know, we're the only species that's capable of pondering the consequences of our actions. Thus: we are the only species that actually cares. The environment has changed radically during the lifetime of our little planet. Species have become extinct and been replaced by new species. Whole ecosystems have died out and been replaced by others. Now suddenly man's actions are bad? Now suddenly nature needs man to look after itself because man knows what he's doing? Bullshit. We have created the need to look after nature ourselves. Partly because our actions endager our own future, partly because at least some of us admire nature and get joy out of its wonderful complexity. It is not in any way expected of us.

By the way: Judging by what you know, do you think we would deserve any of our "rights" if it was a question of being ready to take responsibility?

Interesting video mostly about CIA and current goverment, also things about 9/11.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145&q=9/11+ruppert

I don't know if the facts are true, but if they are... well the other option is always the hoax and good profit for the maker.

His statements are funny - solid gold right there. He's the most powerful man on the planet - few inches from THE BUTTON, so maybe all should be worried to bone..

There's many clips of his "wisdom" on teh internets. I don't have the links, but Youtube propably has them all or some atleast. Or you can google-doogle them..

Then again...I love the USA and respect them for taking action against terrorism.

Quoting the late great genious: "People often ask me where I stand politically. It's not that I disagree with Bush's economic policy or his foreign policy, it's that I just believe...he is a child of Satan here to destroy the planet Earth. Yeah, I'm a little, a little to the left there. I'm leaning that way [leans hugely towards left]" - Bill Hicks (1961-1994)

lumen, 9.4.2006 19:38:
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Dementation,
Have you tought that if all the humans would vanish, who would miss them?
I have and I am quite sure that in that day, nature and animals have a party.
"WEE!!! Idiots are gone!!! WEE!!!"

---

this would surely be the perfect situation for the planet, so why not

I've said this many, many times over the last years... If I had a button, that would wipe out mankind from the face of the planet without destroying anything else as a direct or an indirect consquence, I wouldn't have to think twice about pressing it. Mankind has made itself a cancer for all the rest of living beings. At this state of moral and social evolution, we simply don't deserve to be here.

sensus, 12.4.2006 01:41:


Then again...I love the USA and respect them for taking action against terrorism.

Together with Israel, USA created terrorism ;)

Jone, 4.2.2003 14:22:
I must note that there are actually two guys on this planet that make such remarkable statements, one being Bush and the other our very own Matti "Masa-hiiri" Nykänen. Am I the only one finding similarities in the stuff they say?

Heh, mulle tuli ihan sama mieleen kun tota äsken luin.

Vettis, 25.7.2006 04:01:
Quoting the late great genious: "People often ask me where I stand politically. It's not that I disagree with Bush's economic policy or his foreign policy, it's that I just believe...he is a child of Satan here to destroy the planet Earth. Yeah, I'm a little, a little to the left there. I'm leaning that way [leans hugely towards left]" - Bill Hicks (1961-1994)

Unless Hicks was a psychic, he was probably referring to George Bush Sr.

Edit: typo

Riku, 25.7.2006 04:52:
Mankind has made itself a cancer for all the rest of living beings. At this state of moral and social evolution, we simply don't deserve to be here.

I have to disagree. Whether you believe in creation or evolution the fact remains that we are here and we have evolved this far. I'm not saying that everything we do, or have done, is perfect, far from it, but I still think we have a right to be here as much as any other species. Isn't survival built into every species?

MiMoSa, 25.7.2006 07:55:
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Jone, 4.2.2003 14:22:
I must note that there are actually two guys on this planet that make such remarkable statements, one being Bush and the other our very own Matti "Masa-hiiri" Nykänen. Am I the only one finding similarities in the stuff they say?

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Heh, mulle tuli ihan sama mieleen kun tota äsken luin.

En siis ole ainoa :D "Jos joku asia on varma, niin se on aivan varma." Ooh.

Annakins, 25.7.2006 09:27:
I have to disagree. Whether you believe in creation or evolution the fact remains that we are here and we have evolved this far. I'm not saying that everything we do, or have done, is perfect, far from it, but I still think we have a right to be here as much as any other species. Isn't survival built into every species?

Well, I can't say I'm suprised that people disagree, I expect that most do. My view is based on the fact how much destruction and, especially, the suffering we cause to all other species, even though we have the unique ability to moralize things. And we should do better, much better, because of that fact alone. And I do not think we have the right to do that. We are a very cruel, even sadictic, species, and not many animals, if any, have this kind of trait in them. It is very possible other species could, and would, develop the same kind of trait in evolution, but this does dot disclaim us of our responsibility. The pain and suffering we cause to animals is simply an inexcusable behaviour on our part, and I believe that it would only be fair to wipe our species from the face of the planet to save all others from the results of our behaviour. This may seem a cruel point of view for many, but I think it is far from the cruelty we inflict to others, even our own species. We simply should do far better, even if this is a build-in-trait in evolution. I hardly think that is not an adequete excuse for all we do.

enkeliina,
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MiMoSa,


Heh, mulle tuli ihan sama mieleen kun tota äsken luin.

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En siis ole ainoa :D "Jos joku asia on varma, niin se on aivan varma." Ooh.

Did you guys notice this forum is for people not understanding finnish?

Riku,
Well, I can't say I'm suprised that people disagree, I expect that most do. My view is based on the fact how much destruction and, especially, the suffering we cause to all other species, even though we have the unique ability to moralize things. And we should do better, much better, because of that fact alone. And I do not think we have the right to do that. We are a very cruel, even sadictic, species, and not many animals, if any, have this kind of trait in them. It is very possible other species could, and would, develop the same kind of trait in evolution, but this does dot disclaim us of our responsibility. The pain and suffering we cause to animals is simply an inexcusable behaviour on our part, and I believe that it would only be fair to wipe our species from the face of the planet to save all others from the results of our behaviour. This may seem a cruel point of view for many, but I think it is far from the cruelty we inflict to others, even our own species. We simply should do far better, even if this is a build-in-trait in evolution. I hardly think that is not an adequete excuse for all we do.

Simply realizing that you aren't exactly a gift from god when it comes to the rest of our environment, doesn't imply anything more than just that, realization. Realization however doesn't grant us any magical über powers to nurture the good earth and all its little beings, and it certainly doesn't make us more responsible than those of our animal kingdom that do not realize. By nature we are made to endure, reproduce, endure some more. If our species is able to develop means of sustaining such a natural cycle without any other living things on this planet, then we have truly become the masters of our space, but at the same time, we've become slaves to this new replacing technology.

Even though I sympathize with you and on a lot of levels agree with your sentiments concerning mankind, I can't say that I personally believe that we should be doing any better than we are. That would mean that we were somehow able to escape nature or subvent it as a whole. We might be gods special children like the X-men in all their might, but even the X-men can't save the world :(

We are a very cruel, even sadictic, species, and not many animals, if any, have this kind of trait in them.

The above was quite a weighted statement and doesn't take into account that we are at the same time the most empathic and caring of all animals. I would also imagine that you think that since animals aren't conscious about cruelty or sadism, they can't commit these acts in the same sense? Is it really worse to rip someones limbs out knowing you are causing the victim a lot of pain or simply as a utilitarian function? For the victim it's the same as long as the victim isn't conscious of this difference (like a human).

niomic, 25.7.2006 11:59:
Realization however doesn't grant us any magical über powers to nurture the good earth and all its little beings,

No it doesn't. But that realization does grant us responsibility above all others. "With great power, comes great responsibility", I'm sure you've heard that before, and it's a sentence that holds true in this case also.

and it certainly doesn't make us more responsible than those of our animal kingdom that do not realize.

This I disagree with in the strongest possible sense. In practise what you're saying is, that we should simply forget about morality and common decency. That is just a lame attempt to escape responsibility for your actions.

By nature we are made to endure, reproduce, endure some more. If our species is able to develop means of sustaining such a natural cycle without any other living things on this planet, then we have truly become the masters of our space, but at the same time, we've become slaves to this new replacing technology.

I hardly think the human race is a natural part of nature anymore. The things we do are hardly part of the natural cycle of things. Polluting the air, destoying nature and such things are not anything close to what the word 'natural' means.

Even though I sympathize with you and on a lot of levels agree with your sentiments concerning mankind, I can't say that I personally believe that we should be doing any better than we are.

This I do not even begin to understand. Isn't it the basics of morality to always strive to be better than we are, and develop ourselves on an intellectual level to start acting as we _know_ is right? I understand that even you admit that we are acting in a "wrong" and immoral way? I can't believe that anyone would be so selfish and blind to not undestand that. I'm not saying you believe that, though.

Very much of our philosaphy is also based along these thoughtlines.

That would mean that we were somehow able to escape nature or subvent it as a whole. We might be gods special children like the X-men in all their might, but even the X-men can't save the world :(

Well, as individuals we don't have the powers X-Men have, but as a society, we hold much greater powers. And we're using them in the wrong way. Both towards nature, and also, our own kind.

The above was quite a weighted statement and doesn't take into account that we are at the same time the most empathic and caring of all animals.

I think this comes quite naturally to most, if not all, species. Just look at how mothers always care for their young. This is an instinct which does a lot of good, but with our understanding, or 'realization', we should seek to overcome those instincts which are harmful to both ourselves and others, even if we do not always succeed.

I would also imagine that you think that since animals aren't conscious about cruelty or sadism, they can't commit these acts in the same sense?

Yes, for themselves this is usually simply a matter of survival with no understanding of morality attached. And I do not know of any other species that commits sadism in the same way, or certainly, in the same scale.

Is it really worse to rip someones limbs out knowing you are causing the victim a lot of pain or simply as a utilitarian function? For the victim it's the same as long as the victim isn't conscious of this difference (like a human).

For the victim propably yes. But if you look at the things we do besides killing, like practically enslaving the animal kingdom, forcing them to live in unnatural captivity and things too numerous to mention beyond the cruelty towards animals, we as a race stand very much alone. Unlike other animals, instead of making their deaths a painful experience, we are also making some species' whole existance full of pain and misery.

keisha, 25.7.2006 11:33:
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enkeliina,
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MiMoSa,


Heh, mulle tuli ihan sama mieleen kun tota äsken luin.

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En siis ole ainoa :D "Jos joku asia on varma, niin se on aivan varma." Ooh.

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Did you guys notice this forum is for people not understanding finnish?

¨
Ups, yes I noticed after I had already wrote that text..

keisha, 25.7.2006 11:33:
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Did you guys notice this forum is for people not understanding finnish?

Yep, sorry. Didn't notice before writing.